Why Setting Personal Boundaries is Not as Easy as it Sounds

That is so true.

I have recently gone NO contact w/my mother. She has no regards for my boundaries, my feelings, my struggles or anything else for that matter that concerns me and not HER (which EVERYTHING is about HER). I’ve tried to have a relationship w/her but I can take no more of her abuse. She is the ‘last’ of the toxic people in my life that I’ve had to go no contact with. It first started out with eliminating extended ‘toxic’ family members (cousins, uncles, aunts, etc.)-then to my sperm donor (which took years to come to the conclusion that I needed to do-after not having him in my life as a child)-then to siblings (the children he sired)-lastly to my narcissistic, borderline personality disordered mother. I feel a great void. Yet I am still NO contact. I have no desire to call or communicate w/her. As much of a transition it is-I have no regrets. Period. Thank you Darlene for speaking up and out for those of who have needed this VALIDATION all of our lives. Thank you.

(this was the version of my comment I tried to post…I don’t know why the website posted an earlier draft above…)

In so many ways it was communicated to me that I was not wanted, that I was too much trouble, that I was a problem. I had food allergies from a young age which were simply ignored by my parents. When I was 17, I started to rectify this, to cut out what I was allergic to and received incredible health benefits as a result. But my mother continued to try and ignore this. She would openly lie when I asked her if X allergen was in a holiday meal she was making for everyone and expected me to eat. If I ate something I made myself but sat at the same table, she would spend much of the meal making derisive comments about my food and eating habits.

Once I asked her to cook me something separately and she stormed out of the room, screaming from the other side of the bathroom door that “I organized this entire meal for you!!” A ploy to make me feel guilty, when obviously she hadn’t organized it for my sake when she hadn’t consulted me, couldn’t care less about accommodating a small request and the entire meal was spent with her putting on a facade in front of my brother’s girlfriend. When dinner was ready and I came out to the kitchen, she pointed to a pot near the stove and said in the nastiest voice possible that there it was if I wanted to do it myself.

As a result of this attitude, I simply turned down a lot of social invitations, thinking that I was an inconsolable burden and there was no way I could set my boundaries. Even living with my partner, I thought he could not possibly still care about me/my needs or want me in the room when “guests” were in the house, since that is the way my mother treated me. Like an embarrassment, someone who had no purpose for even being in the room, nothing to say, no reason for existing. Of course my partner wasn’t thinking any of that, I was, because I had absorbed and learned these messages, but I’m breaking away from them today. I see that I do have rights, and I can set my boundaries and be open about what they are, but still socialize.

Hi ButtaFli
I am glad that you hear the message that we are all VALID and that we don’t need someone elses permission to live. I felt a void too, but it turns out it was just an empty place where all the pain used to be, and as it emptied out I had room to fill with some wonderful stuff. Living. At each stage there were more voids and empty feelings and fear of the unknown, but so far the process has never disapointed me.
Glad you are here!
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Caden,
(I deleted the post that you said was an earlier draft

Your insight is fantastic. Your examples here are so perfect! Thank you so much for sharing and for being a part of this site. I had to override all these false messages that I had received about myself too in order to overcome the beliefs that I had about myself; that I was a pain and more trouble than I was worth, a burden, a drag on everyone else.

Hugs, Darlene

Darlene,
Great Post!…I can relate to what you said about being defined as unworthy & less than. My family didn’t try to understand me as much as they expected me to understand, respect, & accept their controlling ways. Well, I tried to be the understanding & compliant daughter to avoid their wrath, however, that did not serve me well since I got the abuse anyway. The emotional & psychological abuse continued from childhood into adulthood. The sarcastic/demeaning digs from mom and the yelling & cruel way my father regarded me is sickening to remember. I experienced trauma repeatedly, & was told to shut up & put up. The message was to Protect Family not yourself. Such Crap! Once, I started limiting my contact with family, I started making strides in listening to myself & making my own choices, without family approval. I grew up thinking family approval & acceptance was the most important thing. However, they mistreated me and I didn’t understand I was being abused, because I was given the message that I was flawed & I was the problem. I did not know that I didn’t have to accept the mistreatment, since I was conditioned to believe that the abuse was normal. I knew it wasn’t normal, but could not put my finger on what it was that contributed to my depressions & anxiety. Now, I’m more than aware & I’m trying to cope with the Trauma resulting from my childhood. I’m getting in touch with my anger and expressing it. It’s scary, since I learned the definition of anger to be rageful & destructive in my FOO, yet I had to suppress my anger.
Thanks for another thought provoking post!
Sonia

BULLSEYE! Great job, Darlene! Like “Rocky” said, life isn’t about how many times you get knocked down, it’s about how many times you get back up!

Hi Sonia
Great points! I found that realizing what the message that I got from the actions was very different than the messages that I got told was where much of my confusion was. And then there were the unspoken messages; where consequences were the result of misunderstanding any unspoken messages. And for so many of us, trying never made any difference anyway. That is why looking at the truth is so powerful. We see the futility in the whole system. It was the fear of rejection for me that kept me from standing up for myself and to the whole thing, when it reality, I had been rejected for the most part for most of my life.
Thank you for sharing!
Hugs, Darlene

Barbara Joy
Hi and thanks!
Hugs, Darlene

“my house is a very, very, very fine house…”

I love this: But, I am finally able to feel like my home is MY home, my safe place, (and NOT an extension of THEIR house that I’m still being abused in …)

Emma:” I was saying to everyone who ever met me, Im Open, USE ME.” This is me, too. I have never learned to set boundaries, to the point where I don’t know how to.

I’m not sure what to do about all this. I’m desperate. I try to repeat mantras that I’m worthy and lovable, but, it doesn’t work for very long. I’m angry that I have to struggle this much because of what people did to me. people that were supposed to protect me. And I’m angry that I live in a society full of lies, a society that lets parents treat us this way.

Hi Diane
Great comments and love your goal! I totally relate to that knowledge that I could “crush” someone with my new found strength and confidence. It proves to me that I have an awareness of how the misuse of power works and also that I know I could misuse mine now too. I have NO desire to be in power over someone else though because I know that is not love OR truth both of which I have worked too hard to find for myself and my life.
Thanks for sharing!
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Emma!
Love your comments too! YAY for self love and standing firm against being used.
Hugs, Darlene

Yes, setting boundaries is of great difficulty to me. Actually, the very first time that i’ve properly tried to set a boundary (a week or so ago) was the moment my Mother abandoned me (again)completely.

I wish there were some way to introduce ourselves and give a bit of background so that our individual situations make more sense. A very brief summary of my situation is that my Mom has always been co-dep. My bio father was an alcoholic and he and my Mom conceived me out of wedlock and split up before I was born. At the age of 8, she met another man (my Stepfather) who was a very vindictive, controlling narcissist. When I had an argument (goodness knows over what) when I was 8 (we had been moved into his home because ours burned down) he leaned over me (he is at least 6 feet tall) and told me that if I carried on then I could pack my s**t and get out of his home. I think that really set the tone for things forever. I always knew he didn’t like me but that exchange really put me in my place. It is my belief he feels my Mothers resources were diluted by having me around (not 100% there for him) and that he resents me for being the product of another relationship/man and his ego just can’t handle it. As for my Mother, she tried to be the referee for years and then somewhere along the way she decided that I must be as awful as he made out and sort of joined forces with him. We were poor and he was upper middle class. They are now very comfortable financially and she NEVER wants a single reminder of where she came from (she grew up poor too). I think this is all a big part of why i’m so disposable.

He would play mind games with me as a child, go out of his way to humiliate me (making me change clothes in the mens changing rooms when I was 12), was very punitive and made me sweat for every dime he gave me (things like money for movies with friends when I was 13) and kept a ledger for debts as I got older (college, etc). My Mom still reminds me how amazing they were for putting braces on my teeth and just think how i’d be if they’d not done that (I had braces at 14/15).

I could go on and on, but even as an adult there is no respect or boundary. I mostly just want to be treated like an adult. Like they would treat any other adult. I don’t want to be yelled to get out of their home in front of my young kids or him pulling the phone cord out of wall and cutting off a conversation where me and my Mother are arguing. It’s not a lot to ask. I ask the same from my Mom. I’d like to copy the contents of the text exchange we had resulting from him pulling the cord out of the wall after I expressed how upset I was that she wouldn’t help me when I needed to take my daughter to the ER (she’s six). This is a really super example of me trying to set a boundary in a non angry confrontational fashion and failing miserably!

The back story is that I had asked her to watch my 3 year old while I took my six year old to ER (as advised by out of hours doctor) and she was at a restaurant with my Stepfather and declined to do so because it would be awkward and she just didn’t know what I wanted her to do. It was a long few days leading up to this and we were trying to figure out what was wrong with my youngest so after the above exchange I hadn’t been in touch with her for ONE day so here goes how it went:

HER: Hey what’s up? You rang? Call me back now if you to chat or need me. Love ya all.

ME: Got too much going on to talk. Was @ hospital last night – got more to address today. Hands full. Talk later!

HER: Hope H is feeling better. I am like you got stuff happening. Ahh will chat when you can talk. Love you all.

After this she went on Facebook and declared me as “pushing her buttons” and a chapter she was going to close in her life as she could just do no right and always got it wrong.

I took the bait and called her. They were packing to go to the beach with their neighbours at the time and my Stepfather got pissed that we were talking about previous events and pulled the phone cord out of the wall. I never heard back from her but sent her this message immediately after being cut off of the phone line:

ME: I deserve etter than this – I do sooo much for this family and helping you guys out what it may be without question without doubt. You hanging up on me and making what has been at best a difficult couple of days is not right. I am a good daughter and a good person, the sad part is that you’re never going to acknowledge that. maybe I should just treat you like XXXX does and then you can see the difference.

ME: I also know that your still @ the house and your beach folks aren’t there. XXXX, XXXX, and XXXX are there. So this is “it’s all about family?” So glad i’ve been there for your illnesses, to help with XXXX, my husband coming to help with stuff at the house. Were good people who don’t deserve this.

I refer to my sister (Stepdads bio daughter)in these posts who outright hates my Mother and makes no secret of it. She curses her out and has even hit her before (though the validity of that claim is in question). My Mom has lots of illnesses (I believe she is addicted to prescription meds) and my Stepfather travels for work so we help out with errands, fixing things at the home, maintaining their pool and arbitration when things get heated between my Mom and Sister. That’s what the above referred to.

EIGHT days later (after absolutely no contact on either of our parts) my Mother sends this.

HER: Ready to chat. Just you and me in person at yoru home? Running errands and would like to drop by.

ME: When did you want to come over?

HER: I am now back at the house. Umm how does tomorrow 11:00 work. I just want you and I to talk. No confrontations. Just some talking. I do not want to do this over the phone either.

ME: There will be no confrontation. However, the terms of our relationship will be redefined. I will accept, from you or XXXX (Stepfather), no less than to be treated like a respectable adult or human being – just as you treat (and I named several of their adult friends here) and anyone else who deserves it. That respect extends to my husband and my children. This includes being called out on facebook and punitive whims regarding your last rights. I am a good daughter and a decent person who does the right thing every chance I have and I am not a person deserving of treatment I am given. I can’t make you be parents or grandparents but I do expect better than wht I was handed last week when I needed help in an Emergency situation. I will no longer accept any less. I deserve no less. I also forgot to mention that yes, 11 will be fine. What did you want to chat about?

HER: I think by reading your text that there is anger with me and is not cooled down yet and I think maybe we should reschedule this. I know you know I was coming to talk about it all. But feel not so sure. I feel strongly we will just bicker and fuss. Not doing that. Please lets look at next week and see if you are more calmer with me. I am not in a stand off with you.

ME: Well this is not anger but rather an attempt to express my expectations and obvously we need to understand expectations or there will be furher disappointment and upset. There was no anger in that text but rather disappointment and you cannot expect that I won’t have feelings about things. I am not going to be in a dance here. I’ve said that you are welcome to come over. I am willing to have a mutually respectful relationship and that is not anger but rather a boundary for my wellbeing which is important to me as a person, wife and Mother.

HER: I read it all. I feel this subject is to heated to discuss with you. Let me know if your available Monday and feel like we can talk. I just sense to much to try to talk yet.

ME: If you’re feeling heat in my setting a boundary – which will not change, then I don’t know what more to suggest. I am not going to lift my boundary and allow myself to be disrespected further. If it is impossible to respect me, theni’m unsure that we can have a healthy relationship. I am not sacrificing my wellbeing (emotional and mental). If you read that as anger then you always will. You are turning my normal request into an argument I won’t have. I am not angry, I am disappointedat how things have gone. I am entitled to have those feelings. I had different expectations and feel we need to establish expectations so that we can have a relationship of mutual understanding. I am more than happy to work on this with you.

HER: No not your boundary

ME: Yes. My boundary. I am allowed to decide what treatment I will accept in my life. That choice belongs to every human being.

And I’ve had absolutely no further contact from her. I am not contacting her either. I made a request that she treat me better and be respectful (not hanging up on me, belittling me on facebook, threatening her will and last rights, etc) and she kept saying I was angry and as you can see she finally said it all “NO NOT YOUR BOUNDARY”!

Darlene, I didn’t set personal boundaries because I didn’t realize that mine had been trampled before I knew what they were. I accepted disrespect as normal behavior and if someone said they loved me then I thought they had to right to ask almost anything of me. I belonged to others before I ever knew that I belonged to myself.

Some people think of morality as boundaries but the boundaries I’m talking about are deeper than morality. Without them, morality has no personal foundation. I needed the basics of where I ended and others began so that I could claim my personal dignity.

Pam

Hi Tangie
Thanks for sharing your history and introducing yourself. OH MY GOSH! This is exactly how it all starts happens. I can relate to some of the details of your story; my mother put me behind all her men and there is a name for that; neglect. It was her job to protect me but she didn’t. And it was her job to raise me and feed me. I stole my cloths when I was 13 and 14 because I couldn’t stand the guilt trip. I found ways to buy them by the time I was 15 because I was so scared to go to jail. Paying for things for your own children is not something to hold over their heads and play the “obligation card” or the “after all I have done for you card”. That is so nasty
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Janie, thanks for your comment. I didn’t expect anyone to comment – I was just grateful for the opportunity to vent, like many do. I don’t feel like I’ve through venting (!!), because I received quite a few letters recently and I don’t know why they affect me, even though I don’t read them and get others to.

I have no idea whether to try to get some police enforcement or just ignore him. If I apply for a restraining order he will have to front up at court and knowing him, he escalates and makes things harder in other ways, eg not contact me if my children need me and tell them I caused it, just to prove a point. Some boundary that is! The only effective boundary is death. Even disappearing to a faraway country would not work as the court would force you back. Since neither of us look likely to die soon, I just have to live like he doesn’t exist. Which is probably why he is trying harder than ever to threaten, intimidate, hook, manipulate, etc.

Tangie, keep venting, and keep sane – they’re the insane ones, trying to tell you that you are angry, etc. No one has a right to define who you are, what you are feeling, why you are doing that, etc.

Another gem Darlene, I have been reading here for a few weeks now but not really commenting … all you say though has really provided some sorely missing pieces in my ‘emerging from broken’, and I thankyou for that with all my sore little heart!

It occurred to me just now, that a big part of this boundary issue for me has been working out what MY values are. Not only did I not think I had any value, but because I didn’t really know myself (all I knew was what I saw through other peoples eyes) , I didn’t know what I valued either. What I valued was what other people told me I should be valuing, and that was invariably what benefited them …..In gradually starting to learn what I value, learn that I had the RIGHT to have values that were different from “theirs”, shit learn that I had VALUE just for being a human being living on planet earth and stating all that to myself in my journal, the boundaries are quite naturally starting to be created.

This is so hard to put into words because its new, even though I’ve been actively trying to heal for a long time ….. but now I’m starting to naturally see where those boundary crossings happen, where I never did before and because I’m seeing them now, I can do something about it then & there. Its like its happening from the inside out now whereas before I was trying to put these “boundaries” (whatever the F&^K they were) into place from the outside in.

I hope I’ve made sense, I’m a “leave a comment” virgin …..

Darlene – My Mother went on some sort of quest to find a man. It was like she hit this point in her life and nothing was going to stop her. There was a time when she wasn’t in this pursuit. I often look at my own daughter, who will be in the first grade this year and wonder about my Mother in ways I could NEVER contemplate her before. I have this memory emblazoned in my mind of being in Kindergarden and her having to run an errand or do something important (so important I don’t even know what it was) and she told me i’d have to stay on my own and that she would lock everything and I wasn’t to touch anything or answer the door, phone or anything. I still remember that Kindergarden little girl glued to the living room chair, scared to death! I didn’t move. I barely breathed. It was all fine and she came home but I remember her shutting that door and the terror setting in of being all alone. When I look at my first grader, I KNOW I could NEVER EVER EVER leave her alone. In fact, I can scarcely think of somewhere i’d HAVE to go that she couldn’t. There was a series of men from there and one of the boyfriends she set her sights on was in another state and he took me out one day (without her – where WAS SHE?) and said we’d play a little joke on her and I would need to get on the payphone and explain to her that we’d had a car crash. I did this. How do you question a grown man telling you what to do afterall? She was so, so neglectful. I spent so much time away. So much. With who? Whoever! She will tell folks that the only grandfather I knew sexually abused her sister and yet she left me with them, I slept in the same bed with he and my Grandmother sometimes! I don’t remember being abused (I think I would) but how? How the HELL do you do that? I have kids, I know the difficulties, but I have NEVER made the choices she did. I wouldn’t. How could she?

Jane – I am so sorry about your husband. What a shame that he feels the need to carry on a cycle that has culminated in so much pain in your life. I can’t imagine trying to glue the pieces back together with him “bulling” his way through the china shop. I wouldn’t pretend to be in the same boat, but I did get pretty exasperated with my husband this weekend because I had a moment and he was shocked that it shook me. He was sure that I should know the game by now, that after all these years I know where I stand and with that knowledge, how can I get my cage rattled. I really let him have it because I felt betrayed by his lack of understanding! I suppose in a way your husband is in a cycle of his own. I hope your new journey starts a road to healing.

The little spin I had referred to above, resulted from a phone call with my sister. She is NC/LC with them also and Stepfather (her bio dad) phoned her to basically see how she was doing. He even asked if she had enough money for groceries. He hates me so much, he never called to see if my daughter was alive or dead. I felt hurt then I realised I would NEVER be valued or wanted for circumstances I couldn’t control (being another mans child). Then I got angry with him and then I got angry with myself. I felt like a chump. What a first class fool i’d been for my whole life, changing my behavior and altering who I was all the time to please him and my Mom. Just dying inside for someone to want me, to really care about me and want me to do well in this world and to thrive. I felt like they must have been laughing all along. I felt disgusting. What a disgusting human being I must have been that my own Mother didn’t care, my own bio dad was busy sorting out his alcoholism and my own Stepfather was preoccupied with how to be rid of me once and for all and here I was the yapping seal performing tricks in the background.

I should really hate them for all of this. And I do. But I also struggle because I hate myself. I wish I had the balls to walk into their home and say everything I ever needed to say and walk out again.

Caden – what you said about a claustrophobic hell and environment designed by their needs reminds me of our old house. It had a beautiful huge “family” room that my NM destroyed with a design for a breakfast nook as she called it. It destroyed the look of the open high beam ceiling and gave her a $20,000.00 spying booth; really weird. My husband and friend called that home the Winchester mystery house because every turn you made was a dead end. I am glad we learned to joke about it in adulthood. In kindergarten and 1st grade I had to hurry home to babysit my 3 yr old brother. To this day I still catch myself wanting to close the blinds on a beautiful day – until I push past it. A 5 and 3 yr old might want to hide but I don’t have to now. I taught preschoolers for a few years and can not imagine leaving them alone…I love every ones children !!!

It’s like the people around me, are so much like my parents – they don’t see me. They don’t see who I truly am, my real skills and my dreams. My mother treated me like I was non-existent most of the time. I was just a cardboard cut out in the shape of a daughter. To be shaped for her own needs. And I end up attracting people in my life that treat me that way, because that’s how I treat myself. Do they need a caretaker right now, I’ll be a caretaker. Do they need this or that, I can do that. I can be anything or anyone. And I’m no one to myself. I can’t know whether I like this book or some other book. It makes me furious.

When I’m looking for work in IT, I apply for support type of work. Why don’t I try to apply for the ones that I actually want within IT, web developing work? Because I don’t feel like I deserve it. Also, I don’t even know if I want to work with IT at all. I want to work with health, maybe in a health store. So that’s the story of my life, I chose to do things I don’t actually want to do, driven on by unconscious parental voices. But, writing about them now, makes it more visible to me.

: /

Darlene – (comment #8) – Your encouragement means a lot … I struggle with feelings of guilt over taking the time to myself for this whole process … but, that’s really just the screwy views instilled in me “Taking time to work on your mental health is a just plain selfish use of your time …” type thinking. Crazy, how such things can keep you hopelessly caged in pain for so long. So happy to have EFB to remind me it’s ok and healthy to take care of your emotional well being!

Kate – (comment #17) – Thank you

Tangie – (comment #25) – Your conversation with your mom gave me chills! That is SO similar to my attempts to have a civilized conversation with my mother about our relationship! So many times I’ve given her the opportunity to ‘hear’ me and hoped for some way to salvage our screwed up relationship – or at least make it more live-able … but this results only in her accusations of me ‘being too sensitive/selfish/’…etc. for setting boundaries, for wanting to be treated with respect … During such conversations I always remained calm, collected … Simply stating, then re-stating what I needed out of our relationship. But, during the conversation, she would be regularly bursting loudly into tears and find some way to make it about HER pain and me being at fault. This behavior USED to work like a charm on me. I’d feel TERRIBLE for even bringing up anything, and apologize for ALL the pain (whether I was at fault or not) … and that’d be the end of the conversation – she’d avoided accepting any blame, and having to take any kind of redeeming action. And I was piled with guilt and feeling like I was being ‘dramatic’ and ‘overly sensitive’ … Simply for wanting to be treated with love.
With the clarity that I’ve come into now, I see the futility of trying to have an open honest conversation with someone who is lying to themselves. It is, thankfully, not my responsibility to exhaust myself making sure she understands WHY I’m doing anything I’m doing. I say what needs said to ensure my boundaries are out there, beyond that – it’s none of my concern anymore. Thank goodness.
I wish you the best as you continue to deal with such a difficult situation!

KR

Hi Jane,
Keep reading; there is a ton of info in this site about those boundaries. I write about HOW I found my value by seeing where it got damaged in the first place. Learning boundaries came through finding out my rights as a human being and that the so many things that happened to me were wrong and that the messages that I got from the ways that I was treated were also wrong. It was through seeing these truths that I was able to find the strength to believe I deserved boundaries and to set them. You did not cause your own PTSD. It started somewhere. I don’t blame you for being afraid of your husband; he sounds a bit dangerous and sometimes it is best to have a saftey plan in place as we prepare to stand up to abusive people of that nature.
hugs, Darlene

Hi Tamara
I read your comments on my phone last night and when I got your second comment saying that you thought what you wrote sounded “nit-picky” I had to go read your first comments again; It is interesting that you re read your comments and thought they sounded nit-picky and back that up with your years in the pursuit of recovery. I was exactly like that too! I believed that I had “no excuse” to be unhappy or struggling STILL after all my years in pursuit of wholeness.
You thought by talking about it the way that it really was that you sounded like you don’t have it together. When I read your comments I was disgusted with a mother who resented taking care of her own children and regarded them as servants and rubbed it in their faces that they couldn’t have special treats like ice cream. I was reading about a child who was dismissed and disregarded and a child who learned to feel sorry for the “burden” she caused her own parents. I didn’t see anything nit-picky about it at all. Just the truth about the way it really was. And YES getting them out without excusing them made the biggest difference towards my REAL recovery over any and all other things that I ever tired in all the years I was seeking freedom and wholeness. It’s just the truth.
Thank you so much for sharing. I am sure that your voice speaks for many!
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Tangie,
I hear you! I wrote a post about my mother taking me to see my pedo grandfather. (http://emergingfrombroken.com/my-grandfather-the-scary-drunken-pedophile/) and my horror over realizing that she took me there! She took a chance on my saftey. And then told me all about what a pervert he was and how he had been caught molesting my cousin. And about leaving you alone in the house and the man that took you too; these are the kinds of truths that I am talking about facing. These things are very damaging.
My heart went out to yours when you talked about “just dying inside for someone to want me, to really care about me”. That is what keeps us going so long in the dysfunctional system. It isn’t you that was disgusting. Think about it. Think about if a little girl (your daughter or the neighbours kid) came to you and told you YOUR story as though it was her story. How would you react to it? Would you think that SHE must be unlovable?
I hated myself too and it was in undoing all the lies that I believed; sorting all of it out that I came to love myself and heal from the damage they caused.
Thank you for sharing
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Pam!
VERY well said! Thanks!
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Diane
Great Comments ~ Yay for not understanding them anymore! That has been such an important part of my healing process. I always had my focus on them; what they wanted and on trying to understand them (so I could better do what they wanted AND accept the way they treated me)
Thanks for posting!!
Hugs, Darlene

Absolutely great and important post Darlene! Thank you! I’ve been traveling so I haven’t been able to keep up with the posts for awhile.

I set boundaries with my adopted father in January. I simply refused to be mistreated or viewed as less than. The final email I sent mentioned that I wanted a relationship with him, but that he would have to treat me with respect and equality if he wanted one with me. He never replied. My stepMom had tried over and over again to get me to budge on my boundaries – even going so far as saying that sometimes what I don’t do says a lot more about me than him. Meaning that by not giving in it’s saying something bad about me. But, honestly, I see it differently. For me, me standing my ground and having boundaries says that I respect and love myself enough not to let myself be abused. If standing up for myself means walking away from them, how does that define me as bad? It doesn’t.

Although, I have noticed since I have been setting boundaries, enforcing them and focusing on the present, that I am happier, more at ease. The problem is that when I feel that way I think I end up scared. Yesterday was my 31st birthday. One of my girlfriends here in Mexico threw a small dinner party for me with a couple other friends. It was so heartfelt and wonderful. This is the first time in my life that I’ve had successful, happy relationships with females (still working on males). I’ve never felt so loved.

I spent most of the day feeling profoundly grateful and happy – then, alternating with intense insecurity and sadness that I’m not as close to my friends in the past. Why would I feel this way? I don’t get it. I spoke with a friend that I’ve been really close to for the past few years and I felt distance between us. Perhaps, because I’m changing, don’t have the same needs and live in a different country? I don’t know, but the distance scared me and I felt depressed.

Did you fear happiness when you started feeling better?

Chris!
Thank you for sharing. This is a perfect example of how it so often goes and the lack of response from your step dad tells where he sits with it. He makes a clear statement about how he views the whole thing.
The response from your mom tells where she sits with it. I see it the way that YOU do. None of this defines you as anything but taking care of yourself.

I was very afraid much of the time in the timeframe of my most intense healing time. I changed and many people besides my family didn’t accept the changes. Even my middle daughter begged me to stop and go back to the way things were. (Today she is a young woman herself and is a huge fan of my work, refering this site to some of the girls she meets in university.) I was very afraid of the unknown, and of being totally alone with just my “self love” and that no one would like the “new me” and that I was going to be “a bitch” all because I had self loving boundaries based on the truth! but each time the fear got too big I thought about what the alternative was. And happiness felt like a “trick” which stems from anything that ever made me happy in my childhood or my past usually had a motive attached to it. It was always “too good to be true”.
I hope this makes some sense in answer to your question!
Hugs, Darlene

Darlene,
I’m responding to your comment #53. You put into words what I’m feeling lately, I’m finding myself “very afraid much of the time”, during my fog busting period with family. My boundaries are getting tighter by limiting contact, however, i still feel the pull to go towards them. It comes back to that “betrayal bond”. I’ve been using this word lately, to describe the relationship with my abusive family. It makes sense of the nonsense & clarifies the Trauma Bond, Not the Love Bond formed in dysfunctional families. Much of it is, what you talk about with being conditioned to believe false beliefs about family. My mom had many sayings & the one I heard often was, “it’s too good to be true”….what does that mean? & what is too good?…this created confusion for me as a child, because when I was very happy, she had to crush the feeling by saying, “it’s too good to be true”. I remember her saying that, when I was crushing on a boy. The message being, there is a motive attached to it. If you believe it, it deprives you of feeling happy….plain & simple.. My happiest moments were with my friends & boyfriends they were my source of happiness. I remember going over my friends’ houses & rarely did they come to my house. The times they were at my house, it felt awkward & tense. That is telling in itself! Real Relationships were not encouraged. I’m sad to say that!…I do have some real friendships now, that are mutual. Yay for that!!
Sonia

Sylvia #54…I so relate with your comment. You put into words some things that I didnt know how to articulate….and I appreciate it! I feel for you so much on that because that is 100% how I lived my life. I would purposely not say anything good about myself or what I had done if I had something special happen, or some big event for fear that it would hurt or anger or offend someone. Even when my daughter was born, there were two of my friends who acted miserable because unfortunately they were unable to conceive…and there I was having had a baby. I downplayed one of the happiest seasons of my entire life…pregnancy and early childhood with them. It makes me sad for them, but I did not know how to behave around them. Being a threat, making others jealous….I tried to avoid that at all costs because I was also taught that my happiness was unimportant compared to everyone else. You are so right…it is sad! It is also BS. I am learning that now. If I am happy, I will show it to the world if I want to , and if something great happens, I will share it now. No more hiding it so that others shine and I am shoved in the background. I have to say that I am at a point now in my life where I feel very strong about this….it isnt anger, but it is a determination to fight for my place…my EQUAL place…and if someone is upset, they can tell me and we will discuss it, and if they dont like it and dont talk about it, then it will remain their problem. It isnt my responsibility to make them happy by how I live my life and by saying things in a way that may possibly make them feel whatever way they are going to feel. I think this might also qualify as a new type of “boundary”….one where I push myself forward in order to be stronger and met on equal ground? I do feel for you that you also went through “playing small”….that is a horrible, left out place and it isnt fair or right that you were forced into that so that your mother could always make sure to have attention focused on her. I am sorry for your pain over that and I am glad you have been able to come a long way. Yay!

Darlene,

This is so timely for me. In the last week I’ve had a bunch of drama with my grandmother and decided to cut off my relationship with her yesterday. I needed to do it, though it was difficult for a bunch of reasons. One of the messages that was communicated to me my whole life was that my value came from being the quiet, agreeable listener. I spent my teenagers years going out and doing things with my mom all the time and she would talk and talk and talk and dump a lot of her emotions, frustrations, etc. onto me. I was fully involved in all her dramas with her mother by 13, 14 years old, including reading a couple of her letters to her mother (you know, the ones where we try to address our issues and vent our grievances). When I had my own problems (particularly in my social life—the fact that I was spending all my free time with her or alone in my bedroom from the age of 12 onwards should have been a clue), I never brought them to her, as it was communicated to me (under the surface) that I was not to have problems. My grandmother also came to use me like this in our relationship, though I cut myself down to very low contact in the last three years. Anyway, it’s a long story but basically my grandma came again to me looking for support for a recent drama she caused, as though she were the victim, expressing all her disappointments in the family, etc. and saying things that were really insensitive to me, considering my own circumstances of which she is totally aware. When you try to address anything, she can’t hear anything at all. She lies. She manipulates. She is terribly unhealthy for me and I believe she is going to get worse and worse as her cancer progresses. I am sorry for her but I realized I have to bail out. It’s too much for me with where I’m at in my life. I don’t believe there was any way to have a relationship and somehow extract all the negativity—no boundary would be firm enough, except cutting off. Or at least the stress of high probability is just too much for me.

I also have come to realize that I am not ready for a relationship with my mom, despite her being wiling to go to counselling, and I have no idea when or if I ever will be. I feel like I have a lot more living to do. I know how desperately she wants a good mother/daughter relationship, that this was her dream her whole life—I imagine to somehow right the terrible relationship she’s had with her mother—but again this is not my job. My job right now is to take care of myself and keep on walking my own path to freedom, healing and wellness. It is too much for me to be focussing on working with her issues. I am okay to see her at family events, gatherings or holidays, but not to have a real relationship. I’ve been quite stressed out the last two days with what’s been happening with my grandma, so I’m going to take a breather before I launch into this. I have to do it soon, though, before I go back to my home town in September. I know that I got my mom’s hopes up by getting back in contact and with her be willing to go to counselling, so I know this will probably devastate her. I am sorry for getting her hopes up, and if I had known I’d feel this way before, I certainly would not have asked about the counselling, etc., but I guess the bottom line is that if I can’t do a relationship, I can’t do a relationship. I really can’t help her with her pain. I can be as kind and as considerate as I can be when I write to communicate my position, but that’s all I can do. I am hoping that I will be able to have a relationship with my dad, though. He seems to think he has to choose sides but maybe things will be different now, maybe my mom will accept him to do this… I am sad about all this, all this pain, but I also know that I have to do what I have to do and the position I am in now is the result of them not having broken the cycle of abuse and dysfunction, which I am now intent on doing. I wish that they could understand that, though I am not sure they will… Anyway, I know I can do this and I know that my future will be worth all the pain involved in this process.

I very much thank you for your work. You know that website you linked to… quite a few times when I’d google something looking for help, I ended up there. Sometimes there’s the odd helpful bit but so much that is not, so much “drippiness” and so much of what I think Karenina termed “gloriousa” in a previous post. Interestingly, it was when I googled the title of my novel-in-progress—”Rage”—and the subject—mother/daughter relationships—that I found you.

Hi Sylvia,
About your comment “how sad that we are rendered unable to be all that we were sent here to be……by those who are supposed to “love” us most” but how exciting and fantastic that there is hope for complete recovery!
Thanks for your comments!
Hugs, Darlene

Sonia,
good point about the “too good to be true” saying being used to burst the bubble of excitement! And interesting that I used that saying today to show why I didn’t trust “good feelings” and suspected a bad motive when I was given a compliment.
Hugs, Darlene

Mimi G. (Great idea to use an initial with your name!)
Love your comments about the place between “no longer and not yet”. That fits so well with this conversation!
Hugs!

Alaina
That was my identity too! I found out that a lot of people didn’t like me when I became an individual. They liked me being what they wanted me to be. My mother suggested going to councelling together and I took her up on it. She never brought it up again! Interesting that this is actually common. My in-laws also suggested that we go to family therapy with them, and we also agreed. They never mentioned that again either! I am not trying to suggest that you agree to going, because some parents are really serious about doing that, I am just saying that I hear this all the time and most of the time they think they are actually “making a threat” that will make us comply with them agian. It is perfectly fine if you don’t want to go! (I wanted to go with my mom but it was just another game that backfired on her. I did NOT want to go with my in-laws, but agreed because I was too scared to say no. In the end I think it was a game for them too and it also backfired when we agreed.
Thank you for sharing.
I am very happy to have your voice here in EFB!
Hugs, Darlene

mimi g….I hope you wont take this the wrong way when I say I started laughing when I read your comment…but it is because you have “twin” thoughts and feelings to mine. I didnt use to understand what relaxing was, and have definitely dealt with what a shrink once said about me in my early 30′s that I had “perfectionist tendencies”. I also come across differently to other people and they would never guess how tightly wound up I was feeling usually because I hid it so well. (there have also been times when I started to ramble incessantly out of anxiety too) I have learned over the last 7 years or so to relax more and more and that includes the “black and white” thinking and processing. I agree with you that it is one conversation at a time in figuring out how to relate, connect and converse in a healthy equal way . I am able to be a “perfect” social butterfly and am totally comfortable in nearly any setting …in a social, surface talk kind of way, but when it comes to every day back and forth I feel insecure….it is a process that I am dealing with now and am determined to figure out. I think if I can stop second guessing myself so much , it might help too. I am curious if the hypnosis tapes help? Thank you for your comments and peace and grace to you !

Darlene,
Thanks for your comment. I don’t know if you read my last comment under your post, “The problem with saying Love & You will be Loved”, but what you said about the saying, “too good to be true”, really resonated with me on that post, about the recent, random compliments my family is throwing at me. I do suspect a bad motive & why wouldn’t I, since they conditioned me not to trust “good feelings”. I need to trust my own feelings- good or bad…right or wrong….they could of taught me that instead! My mom had tons of saying & when I think of them now, they are pat answers for just about everything. How about the plain & simple Truth??? That is better, even if it’s painful, since that is where you learn to be resilient…
Sonia

Diane #57,
I love your comments, it is so sad that we are taught to “Hide our light under a bushel” instead of letting it shine. And by being afraid of hurting people with our acheivements and good fortune. I recently read the following, wonderful comment on another site.
“Its not up to me to determine how someone else recieves information.”
And it isnt! But the problem lies within the fact that we have been trained into such extreme hypervigilance regarding the feelings of others. I really am beginning to see that if someone has a problem with my successes and good news then it is their responsibility to deal with it, perhaps by getting therapy! Love Sylvia x

Sylvia, I loved your post! We are indeed hypervigilant to the feelings of others, usually very sick people, if we are speaking of our families. That could be why there are a disproportionate number of us in the nursing field! Also, it is true, we aren’t responsible for how someone else receives information. My mother would receive any good information about me, by forgetting it, destorting it, or not passing it on. When I took a position as a hospital supervisor, she would ask, over and over, what is it that you do there again? Could not remember my title. My GC sister would not allow me to mention my job at family functions, “I’m only interested in talking about things concerning the family” lol! She would then engage in “kid talk” about her children, which would leave me totally out of the conversation, as I am childless. If I mentioned my step children, that would be followed by a period of silence, then people would pick up the conversation as though I had never spoken! Funny thing, everyone does seem to abide by her warped “rules”.
Even the other day, my older sister, who attempted to usurp my visit with my Aunt and Uncle, who invited me, said, while my cousin was loading the refririgerator after shopping, “MOMS always know how to fill up the refrigerator, don’t they, cousin?” Well, ok, but most MOMS would address their childs learning disabilities and developmental delay as well, wouldnt they? And most MOMS would not let their husbands who are drinking supervise their children, and drive with them in the car. And most MOMS would not put their head in the sand regarding their husbands drinking, until he ends up in jail, where he currently resides.
But, hey, guess I am splitting hairs on those points.
It is all soooo warped!
Thanks for letting me vent a bit!

Janie

Janie
Everything you said makes sense and is a good point. These were the kinds of things that I had to see were not just splitting hairs, but were in fact the way that I was treated. The discounting way I was put in danger. The disregaurd and disrespect that I learned to accept.
Thank you for sharing.
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Pam
This is an important fact too that you have brought up here; that some of us exagarated the truth or lied about how it really was and then THAT is used as proof that we are liars or that we are “crazy”. (like my cupcake story) They point to it as the proof and we so often hang our heads and accpet that “yes, it must be me”. But the truth is that you WERE beaten emotionally and that the emotional abuse was still abuse! Abuse is abuse and that is what we are sorting out!
Thanks for sharing,
Hugs, Darlene

Tangie, and everyone, [this post is LONG, but you may find it interesting!]

I noticed that you told a bit of your back story. I have been in the process of typing up what I remember from childhood to adulthood, and it has been a struggle, to say the least. The last time I talked to my Mom face-to-face was so volatile and just destroyed me. She has since started playing the victim and telling family members plenty of lies about me and my husband.

I just wanted to talk a little bit about boundary setting for a moment. When I started to set boundaries with my Mother, I did so by letter, although I’d been trying face-to-face for YEARS. I am currently feeling very good in my decisions, and very confident, even if I do have some wavering from time to time. I’d like to share the letter that I wrote to my Mother and sent in the mail. Please note that this is after years of taking her emotional abuse and manipulation.

Dear Mom,
I have been doing a lot of thinking lately, and often times, I write better than I talk. I know our past attempts at talking haven’t always gone so well. And, I know that often times when we are face-to-face, emotions get too high, and sometimes things are said that both of us don’t mean. This letter is between you and me, and I would appreciate if the rest of the family isn’t read the letter. I haven’t read this to anyone, and these are my thoughts only. I feel like this letter will help me heal, and hopefully cause some healing in our relationship.
When Dad first passed, I felt like I saw a different side of you I have never seen, and I was very grateful. You apologized for things you had said about Dad, and for taking me to Idaho. And, I forgave you whole-heartedly. The forgiveness I provided you was pure, true forgiveness. I still forgive you as I meant every word I said. But, I am hurt by a few things that have happened since then. Since Dad has passed away, I notice our relationship is more and more like yours and Grandma’s, and I am often walking away feeling like I can’t quite get close to you. I have started to feel probably very similar to how you felt after Papa passed away. I have anger because I feel like I was robbed of a good relationship with my father. I know he was not a saint, but I honestly feel like I didn’t know HIM. I have gone through all the problems of blaming myself, blaming others, and blaming him. Sometimes I feel like too much was said about him, and that my perception was skewed. I know this was not your intention, but I just want you to understand that I wish less would have been said about Dad. He didn’t talk poorly about you directly to me, and I respect him a lot for it. I am only telling you this because I wish so much in my heart that the divorce would have gone differently, and telling you this will help me move past these feelings.
The rift between you and [my now husband] has to end. I need to be explicitly clear here as our face-to-face conversations about him have not gone well. I have stopped talking about him to you, and I’m sure you have noticed. I am not interested in fighting over what you think is happening in our relationship, because, honestly, you don’t have any idea. It was my own personal choice to become involved with [him], and you do not have to like it. But, I am marrying him. We are engaged. Our lives are coming together as one. I respect him, and he respects me. He treats me very well and I thoroughly enjoy spending time with him. He makes me happier than I have ever been. He is hurt by what you have said about him in the past. I am allowed to tell him anything I want, just as you are allowed to tell [your husband]. Personally, I feel communication is the most powerful tool in a marriage. When something happens to upset me, I tell him, and he listens. He has every right to be upset that you were talking about him behind his back. And, frankly, I haven’t been as adult as I should have been when the situation first began. I should have told you long ago that I will not stand for anyone talking about [him] that way, as he would never stand for anyone talking about me that way (I am talking about conversations you and I have had, and conversations other family members have told me). We have had a situation in his family where his uncle and I got into an argument over a miscommunication. [My future husband] stood up for me, his uncle apologized, and everything is just fine. That is all I want with you and him. I asked you to apologize to him for what you said, but you weren’t ready. It is fine that you weren’t ready. But, until some things are settled, he does not feel comfortable around you. You cannot apologize to him through me. I will be with him as a married woman, and this is something that will cause a huge rift in our relationship. I am unwilling to ignore it, and I saw the same pattern repeat itself recently. When I mentioned that I was going to [my future husband’s] family for prime rib on Christmas Day, you asked me if I had to pay for it because it was expensive. This comment is the exact type of underhanded comment you hate from Grandma. When I got off the phone, I called a friend and said “What do you think this means?” She told me that it was definitely rude, and was a statement regarding how you feel [my future husband’s] family is cheap. I need you to understand that his family has accepted me with open arms, regardless of any type of situation I have been in. I have a wonderful relationship with all of [his] family, and they treat me with so much respect. I have never had any of them talk badly about me, nor have any of them made me feel badly about myself. I can turn to any of them in a struggle and not feel judged. [My husband] has had some struggles in the past that are working themselves out now. Things are fine, Mom. I know you say you worry about me, but I need you to ask yourself if you have ever liked anyone I was romantically involved with. The answer is no, and I don’t know why that is. I feel as if you are saying that I am bad judge of character, and I can assure you that I am not, as I saw you abused by Chad [ex-stepfather] for many years. I know what I want in a man, and I also know that no one is perfect. Everyone has his or her weaknesses and problems to overcome. This is one thing that needs to be fixed. The ball is in your court. Your relationship with [my future husband] was fine before this. We have grown a lot in the 4 years we have been living together. This isn’t just some high school relationship anymore. So, I just need you to truly understand. I will not have anyone talking badly about [him] or his family, just as I will not stand for any of them talking badly about you or my family. None of them have said anything badly about myself, you, or anyone else I love. I expect the same thing. If the same thing cannot be returned, I will not put up with it. He doesn’t have to prove himself to you, because he’s proven himself to me, and it should be enough that you love and trust me. He is the future father of my children, and I will not have this problem still occurring once we have kids.
I am not telling you all of this to make you feel bad. I have been doing a lot of thinking about this situation ever since Dad died. I don’t have to sit there and take everything that is said. I have the right to stand up for myself as an adult and ask for an adult relationship with the people I love. I know you want a good relationship with me, as I want a good relationship with you. But, I’m not willing to cause myself anymore stress to get it. I am enrolled in grief counseling and it begins in February. Dad’s passing showed me that I don’t want to have any regrets. I don’t want to regret not healing rifts with you, and not telling you how I feel for fear that I will lose a relationship with you. I also don’t want to be a push over. I am only asking that you accept my relationship with [my future husband]. I am not asking for this to be a write back and forth thing like you and Grandma did after Papa died. I don’t want that. All I want is for you to listen to what I am saying, know that I am an intelligent adult, and just think hard about where I am coming from. We do a lot of talking about other people, and sometimes we don’t take a hard look at ourselves. I have taken that hard look at myself, and I realize where my faults are. I am working to mend myself. And, this is a step that I feel is important in that mending.
I love you. You are my Mom. I know you love me, too. But, I needed to get this off my chest because I don’t see any changes coming from your end. I know I’m asking a lot, but I’m not perfect either. I know I haven’t always done things the way you want me to. But, this where an adult daughter and mother relationship changes. Think about the relationship you wanted with Grandma. I want that too, Mom.
If you want to talk, give me a call. If you need some time, I understand. But, I am not willing to fight about this. I have said what I needed to say, and I meant everything I said. This feels very good to get all of it off my chest. Thank you for listening.

Love,
truthbtold

She never called. After about 2 and a 1/2 months, I called her and asked her if she got my letter. She came unglued. We then did this fighting email back and forth thing which I don’t have anymore. I eventually invited her over to my house to bury the hatchet, and she started saying that she was the mother, and that I’m the daughter and that she’s taking the power back and I have no right to talk to her like this. My stepdad kept saying “But, you’re her baby!” and I kept getting more and more upset. I’m an ADULT. Yes, I was a baby at one point, but she missed that part in my life by partying and putting her daughters last. The roles have always been reversed between us, and my Mom has had very similar struggles with my Grandmother that went absolutely NO WHERE. Needless to say, the meeting at my home ended when my Mom said that my Dad was rolling over in his grave by the way I was spending his money (My parents divorced when I was 4. My Dad died in a car wreck. I had told him I felt I was brainwashed the Christmas before he died, and we were working things out. He left my sister and I money because he wasn’t married and we had no idea we were getting this money. I have purchased a car and finished my degree, plus moved from a 1 bedroom apt. to a 2 bedroom. My other car was broken down and I needed a vehicle. The rest of the money is in an account that cannot be used until retirement). My Mom also said that family wasn’t important to me, and that I was selfish and must not love her because I wouldn’t tell our friends that were coming from Canada for Christmas that they couldn’t come. She left saying “I guess you don’t need family, you just need money!” and my husband said in unison “We don’t need family when they act like you.” I emailed a week after and asked for counseling because our relationship was broken. She said it wasn’t broken and she wasn’t going to call/write/email anymore. I haven’t been to a family function since if she’s there. I also didn’t invite her to my college graduation, but my Grandma was ultra-manipulative and told her she was invited and they came together. I was furious. I kept getting told “It’s an important day for her too!” She didn’t help me graduate from college, as a matter of fact, she never helped at all. I paid for all of it until my Dad passed. It is MY important day.

So, in a short concise nutshell, that has been my experience in boundary making. My cousin is getting married tomorrow about 300 miles from where I live, and I was expected to go. I said I wasn’t sure because my Mother would be there. I was told that people were disappointed in me and that I needed to reconsider. I did, and decided I was going to attend until I got a text from my sister and aunt saying “How are you going to go to the wedding if your Mom is going to be there?” Basically, challenging my boundaries. My sister texted me today and asked when I was going to be in town for the wedding. I told her I wasn’t coming and that I didn’t want to argue about it. She hasn’t texted back luckily.

Boundaries are HARD, especially when they aren’t clearly defined inside yourself. I have never, ever, ever questioned the decisions my family members have made, but mine are questioned regularly. Needless to say, I’m liking the lack of contact.

Keep your head up, everyone. We can do this!

<3 truthbtold

Hi truthbtold,
Wow!…You are taking a Strong Stance with your family & I admire that!…I understand it’s not easy…My process as been one of LC & trying to have a real relationship too. It’s been a lot to handle lately, due to emotionally charged situations involving myself, sister cousins & mother. A lot of finger pointing & no real effort at mending the issues. I’m impressed with the heartfelt letter you wrote your mom. You did not attack her or bad mouth family at all. You showed a real effort to mend the fences & have a relationship based on mutual respect & equal value, like what Darlene talks about here. She sounds like a copy of my mom, in that she wants to maintain control, no matter what. It’s a Sick System. So glad you are standing strong! You got me thinking about writing a long letter to my mom LOL.
Peace,
Sonia

Hi everyone,
What an amazing thread. I can SO relate to everything thats been said, its so wonderful to share with people who have been through this, thank you. Is it any wonder that we have had difficulty in setting healthy boundaries when this is the polar opposite of what we were taught? I was not allowed to shut the doors to the bathroom or my bedroom as a child. If I did this, my mother would burst in and demand to know what I was hiding. She was TERRIFIED of anyone keeping anything from her. When I was small, she told me that I had a window in my head through which she could see my thoughts, so I had better not be thinking anything bad. I can remember desperately trying to work out what I was allowed, and not allowed to think! How wicked is it to force a innocent child to marshall their thoughts in that way? No wonder I grew up being totally out of touch with my emotions. I actually used to allow people to TELL me what I was thinking. As a teenager, the infringement of my right to privacy got worse. My room, pockets and bags were searched, my diary was read and she opened my letters. I dreaded coming home from school, as she would often be waiting to pounce on me, waving some piece of “eveidence” that she had found. The amazing thing was that she was so open about her snooping, as if it was her right to be doing it. I was warned over and over that I must never keep anything from her. The ironic thing was, the one thing I should have told her, I didnt dare – because I knew she would have blamed me. I was raped by two older boys when I was 13. Even if she had believed me, there would be no way the police would have been informed, because she dreaded any kind of scandal. The whole thing would have been hushed up, and then thrown in my face whenever she needed a stick to beat me with. I suspect that it was my lack of bounaries that led to the rape. Abusers can sense this kind of vulnerability. Her violations of my personal space impacted my adult life massively. I felt that I had to be an open book and tell everyone the most minute and private details of my life. Unsurprisingly, on several occasions, this kind of information was used as ammunition, and I was badly betrayed. Now , I delight in having “secrets”, in keeping things to myself until I feel it is safe to share. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Love Sylvia x

I can even add that everyone in my family let the door of the wc open !
And I can even remember my genitor pee with me in the bowl !

Hi Aurele, (what a pretty name, by the way),

I am so sorry that you, too, experienced boundary violation in your childhood home and later life. You know, I think, as innocent kids, when we are spied on and accused of bad things by our parents, they are projecting their own shame and guilt onto us. They want to make us feel all of their self-disgust in a vain attempt to make themselves feel better. For someone who set herself up as such a paragon of virtue, my mother could be very crude and disgusting. She said horrible things which made me feel very self-concious and ashamed of my body. At a family picnic ,she said to me in a very loud voice – “Sylvia, dont sit with your legs open, you will attract flies”.??? I believe that this innapropriate treatment definitely sets us up for further violation, such as rape and abuse from others outside the family home. And as for trying to control our thoughts – I believe that they are terrified of us having our own identity and autonomy. They dont want to see us as seperate entities. What other explanation could there be for these ruthless attempts at mind-control? Well, they havent succeeded, or we wouldnt be here, sharing our truth – we would still be wandering in the fog, thinking it was all our fault! Aurele, I wish you love and healing, Sylvia x

Hi Truthbtold;
When you mother stated “I am the mother” ~ that is the truth leak right there. That says it all. And I today I would respond with “what the hell is that supposed to mean?. If there was an answer to my question it would have a bunch of crap about “respect and compliance etc.” all to do with obligation as though that is love but it isn’t. There is no equal value in statements like “I am the mother”. There are only demands and obligation.
Thank you for sharing,
Hugs, Darlene

Abusers and controllers are terrified that we might become “more” than them. That we might be happier than them. That we might actually find a way to live a full life and leave them behind. They are afraid that if we discover our value then we will never let them abuse us again and they are defined by our compliance to them. It makes them feel valid. They must keep us in “the spin” because if we have to many moments of clarity, they are afraid that we will see them for what they know they really are; pathetic.
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Aurele,
Yes, I did get a very good therapist and am now training as a therapist myself. I will also soon be starting to train as a hypnotherapist, so some good has come out of it after all! Mom has been dead for many years now and while I havent forgiven her (this isnt a priority for me), I have let go of a lot of my anger, for my own sake. I dont know why she was the way she was and it isnt my business. Understanding it wont undo the harm done to me so I dont try. I also dont try to figure out why my father enabled her,I just want to help others who have gone through pain like ours. Wish me luck! Love Sylvia x

p.s. I wouldn’t actually leave my grandma with a bill she couldn’t pay, but I would walk out.

Sorry, I would say “if one DAY I succeed to heal”.

Hi Aurele,
I am British – I come from Newcastle-upon-Tyne in England. I am sure that you WILL help and heal people. You have made a good start by coming here and sharing your experiences. xx

Hi Alaina, my heart goes out to you, you sound as if , like me, you have been expected to meet the needs of your family before your own, and also made to feel responsible for the feelings of others. And I know what you mean about staying somewhere cos it feels safe, making changes is scary. All the best with your move to Montreal and your book, Love Sylvia x

Hi Sylvia,

Thank you for your encouragements.

Escaped from hell, sorry.

Hello, Everyone!
Feel like I am doing alot of processing, and soaking up all of these great posts. We all have so many commonalities. I would like to thank whoever mentioned the book “The Betrayal Bond”, I think it was Mimi, as I am reading it now on my Kindle. This stuff all goes much more deeper than I knew! Depressing and encouraging at the same time. I was doagnosed with PTSD, and did not realize how pervasive it could be!
My S.O.’s children have come back from a week of visiting their narcissistic grandmother. She is battling cancer,but still as mean as ever. I guess she singled out SO’s 13 year old son for bullying. He would definitely be a scape goat if SO didnt work with him daily on building his self esteem. When SO asked his son how he handled it, he said, “Easy. I just ignored her. I concentrated on having fun with my cousins”. Good for him! And it made her more angry,I guess. She is so toxic. One week a year is too much.
His little girl, whom she picked on last year for being “fat”, and tried to encourage her to watch her calories (she’s 11 now),I noticed when she came home,she is eating about half of what she usually eats. Her favorite ice cream treat, that her Dad had for her, she only ate less than half last night and put it back in the freezer. I pointed this out to my guy, and reminded him of her toxic and harmful statements to this little girl last summer. 1. If she is chubby, which she is not, so what? She’s a growing girl and very healthy and athletic. 2. This is the time when young girls get stuck with yo-yo dieting syndromes, and struggle all of their lives with weight, b/c of the unhealthy habits instilled now.
The kids mom is the scapegoat in that family,so NGM naturally tries to assign the role to one of her children. I’m not going to let it happen, for as much as I can be involved without overstepping. Just lots of positive talk, good job!, great news!, you can do it!, you should be proud of that!, etc.
I feel for the kids’ mother,as her mother is probably dying, and she must have unfinished business with her. But I am so glad this evil woman lives 10 hours away,and her time on this planet, and interaction with these children may be limited. (I just scratched the surface on her nastiness and favoritism, but I’m sure we can all get the picture).

Janie

Marie, I was very moved by your story/history. I can imagine the grief and how you are beating up on yourself about your mother, and how you have been suffering. I am so sorry that you were abused as a little girl by your father, and I am so sorry that your mother abandoned you and turned a blind eye and let you down all of your life and didnt believe you. I am also sorry for your losses! When I think about your situation, it is so typical of what I read every day here at EFB….the abused ends up feeling the guilt and shame and takes on even blaming themselves. I hope I dont sound unsympathetic, because I do absolutely feel for what you have gone through, but I also feel that to blame yourself about contributing to your mothers passing…and feeling guilt because your parents were good grandparents and your mother was making ammends ….once again in HER own way….well, it just doesnt sound to me personally that you need to be feeling guilt and shame and blame over it all! Your father was a monster and sexually used and abused you…your mother chose to remain in denial her entire life…did not validate you…did not value you enough to become honest and believe you and help you and save you from your father. Your mother may have been nice in HER way, but it certainly seems that YOU had to comply with her boundaries…even to your own hurt and having to live with never being able to turn to her for help and support your entire life. My mom’s father did the very same thing to her….right before he died, he admitted that he had done what he had done…and then he took it back. Her mother also briefly admitted that she was telling the truth and then demanded that they never ever speak about it again. There were three girls in that family and all of them had been horrifically abused by their father sexually. I just dont have compassion for women who abandon little helpless children so that they can remain “clueless” . Sorry, but I dont. Your parents may have been kind while you were hurting, on meds, having to withdraw from meds, having to learn to live in this world in pain and guilt and unresolved abuse issues…and they may have been kind to your children, but unfortunately that didnt help YOU. I have learned the hardest and most difficult way that to not take care of ME and to always feel guilt and shame about THEM and feel sorry for them and that I was to blame….after everything they did to me….well, I just dont believe it anymore! I have to take care of myself and I owe myself to be healed, happy and healthy….as much as I can be. I have compassion for your grief, but I feel more that you were let down and left alone all of these years and it is time for YOU to be free of all of that. I have to believe that your mother deep down loved you enough to admit the truth, and now she would want you to heal and not have to live under HER crap anymore like she did. Maybe at the end that is what propelled her to admit to you that she believed you….she wanted you to know so you could be free. I hope I havent hurt you by writing this…I am sorry if I did! Peace and hugs to you!

More about boundaries and role playing. Whenever I spoke up for myself, usually when I was younger (teens) what I said was dismissed. When I tried to assert myself as an independent person, that person was ignored (by my mother) or belittled and control/corrected by my father. I was not allowed an identity independent to my “family identity”. It was, up until last year a role I learned to play in their presence even though that is not who I am now. When I wrote my boundary setting letter in Jan to my mother (Jean) she completely ignored it. No response at all. I had stepped out of my “role”.
My identity, who I was, what I was allowed in expression, personality, creativity was predefined by very
boundaries within my family. They set my boundary in advance. They fenced me in with specific parameters of who I was and could become. I am allowed only that persona. And if I did step outside I learned never to let them see as it was not “approved”. I have lived that way for at least 40 years. Knowing I was not acceptable for who I am. I stepped out of that “role” last Oct. I asserted myself in Jan.
As usual they just turned their backs. I reread my letters from Jan and wow they are whimsy compared to how I would express myself now if I had contact which I don’t. Back in Jan, I was still blaming myself.
Darlene is right. It takes time and the shift in your thinking is subtle but my role is changing. I’m trying to truly be me. Not the fake me. The real me. I think it would be helpful to discuss these roles that we play for approval of our abusers/controllers. What do we give up of ourselves? What do we play false about ourselves?
Karen Ranes

Something that I’d never considered before this discussion as a crossed boundary is that my ex, a couple years into our relationship, began only referring to me in the 3rd person, including when talking to me. Anytime a proper person would refer to me as ‘you’ like ‘how are you?’ he’d say it like ‘how is Jackie?’ Always in some sort of sing song, patronizing, condescending, etc ton. I remember asking him over and over and over, and of course eventually giving up, to cut it out. He would get incredibly defensive about it, argumentative and aggressive. I think now, when I look back and after reading all this discussion and since this was posted I’ve blown through two books by Patricia Evans, I’ve come to see it was because he wanted to obliterate any boundary I was trying to make. To keep me on my toes, to keep me in the fog. It was deeply confusing and troubling at the time, and something I never could quite understand. He would do it in front of people, alone, in front of his parents, anybody really. It was just another one of his ways of trampling all over me so that I wouldn’t even think of putting up a boundary, was too confused and focused on what it MEANT instead of seeing it for what it was: abuse. (got this from one of the books I read, hit me like a brick it made so much sense!) Treating me like a child make me feel like a child, and since my family (still tries heh) treated me this way, I didn’t really put much thought into it other than it felt bad, but again, I really thought it was me deserving this treatment. Messed up stuff. The only boundary I truly enforced was the one on the night of our breakup. I told him that I did not want to go to his mother’s to ‘hide’ from my family who’d come to ‘save’ me. I wanted to go to a hotel and make a plan, not his mother’s and definitely not my mother’s house, I was aiming for neutral territory. As soon as he realized that I wasn’t budging, his crocodile tears stopped instantly (literally) and he proceeded to tell me to go kill myself cause he’d be the best thing that ever happened to me. Needless to say, after he left for good it was the best feeling in the world. I took an hour of his extreme verbal and almost physical assault and then he was gone. But I put down a single boundary that night, as I see it now, and he couldn’t, just was completely unable, to respect it cause he only say me as a toy or something, as ‘Teddy’. He told me instead that I should go kill myself cause he was the thing giving me worth and without him, I was nothing and shouldn’t exist. Lots of stories like that, but that is the one time I decided to have a boundary (and didn’t budge) with him and boy, I saw what happened. I am convinced had I gone back, cause he actually tried sweet talking me back after that, he actually acted like he forgave me for my indiscretion and stipulated all the ways I could make it up to him THEN he’d take ME back, anyways, if I’d gone back I am very sure he would have started really physically abusing me. And he would have said I deserved it because I hurt him so bad for leaving. All because I put down a boundary.

Hi Janie,
It was me that brought up the book, “Betrayal Bond”. It was recommended to me from an abuse survivor. I’ve been reading it too & it is eye opening & describes the intensity of the bond. Did you take the “Post Traumatic Stress Index?” The results were interesting to look at, in that it pin pointed the areas that affect me such as,” Trauma Reactions”, “Trauma Blocking”, & “Trauma Splitting”…Validated so much of what I’ve been acknowledging, processing & verbalizing in my Betrayal Bond with FOO. It’s is heavy stuff to read & I’ve had to put it down to decompress. EFB has been a great sounding board to vent my feelings & obtain support from other wounded survivors. Yay for all the support!
Sonia

Rizae, such true words! I also got to the point of cutting off everyone from my family, and I was exhausted and completely drained too. That was the only boundary that I feel I could set that was strong enough in order for me to try to find a way to heal. I didn’t realize that at the time…that it was a boundary. I think of my parents and still have a measure of love, and even forgiveness….I don’t wish evil upon them….but if I hear that they have passed away, I can’t say that I would feel anything except a small measure of sadness and total relief. I used to believe something was wrong with me for thinking of them dying and wishing they would and knowing I would feel relieved, but I don’t anymore. I don’t wish for them to pass nowadays, but I believe I still would feel intense relief. Being away from them entirely for over a year…and thinking of trying all over again at some type of relating with them only produces anxiety and really not much else. I literally just couldn’t try anymore.
I do wish for you total healing and well being Rizae! You are a sweet heart!

Rizae, thank you for opening up like this…! Whenever I hear of someone being a “scapegoat” in a family, it brings up a tear. I wasn’t the scapegoat in my family…my older brother was, and we were very close. It was sheer he’ll watching and listening to the abuses he suffered, and from your description, it sounds so similar. There were 4 of us also…I have three brothers, but the dysfunction of the family made it impossible for us to remain close as we became adults…as the years went by. So my parents…especially my mom…did an alienation job on all of us too. I am so sorry that you have had similar issues in your life too! You never should have had to, and I am so glad that you are coming out of the fog like me…more and more. Just to try and encourage you about using food to cope because you still struggle….I hope you will try not to always be too hard on yourself about it. Maybe food is all you really had that was there for you back then, and maybe it is still your “security blanket”? That is how it was with me. It’s really too bad that this type of coping mechanism shows up on the body! I have been exactly where you are about food and even eating disorder “issues” , but to encourage you….I got free a few months ago when I had what I call my breakthrough on here at EFB. It was like when I realized I was free and I was worthy and whole as a person….that I was great being ME…..I instantly lost that lifelong….since I was literally 8 yrs old….pull with food. I have lost 25 pounds or so last time I weighed. The need was born out of a need for survival….to cope with all of the abuses….and now it is healed. I haven’t been perfect with eating and exercise, and of course I do have to make choices to eat healthy….but I used to rip through so much sugar and junk food, and hide food all over the place….and now I don’t NEED to. Anxiety and fear…. Something stressful….or even unusual levels of excitement would start that feeling like I had to have something to eat. To unwind would be also another trigger. It used to scare me be ause I have low blood sugar…but I couldn’t stop! I think that as you keep reaching for healing and you keep setting healthy boundaries and Kiel learning how wonderful you really and truly are…..and as the lies you were brainwashed to believe are revealed ….and as you get stronger emotionally….you are also going to see and feel and experience breakthroughs that feel like absolute miracles in YOUR life. JUst for YOU! So hang in there. It is so great to have connected with you on all of this. I also understand how it feels when you see pics of your sibling children…and that stab of regret and pain. But YOU did not cause that and neither did I. It wasn’t your first choice at all to cut them off. I am just sorry that you have been devalued like you have…even with your siblings. As for unlearning those messages and lies from your mother….that IS the part that is frustrating, but that isn’t because we are “slow” ….we were literally abused and manipulated, and controlled and lied to for so many years! I think it shows our deep intelligence that we are even seeing all of this at all! Much. Grace and peace and joy sent your way tonight!!

Diane ~ Thank you so much for that. Very validating. And I do think when it comes to food its slowly changing. I’ve noticed I don’t think about food as much and I really don’t mindlessly eat like I used to. I hope I can be where you are now in relation to the food thing.

All my food triggers were/are the same as yours. And yes, it can be viewed like a ‘security blanket.’ My food problem started when I was quite young. When I was about 13 or 14 I had a fight with the only friend I had at the time – she called me ‘fat.’ I was so hurt, and when I got home I looked in the mirror and … I was fat. She was right. Next day I asked her how one goes about getting skinny. She told me. I hardly ate and then exercised incessantly. I got all the weight off in a short period of time (and my menstruation even ceased for about six months.) I kept the weight off for quite some time. I was about 16 years old when I started to really notice my mother’s abuse (in hindsight as this was my ‘normal’ then) and her favouritism of my younger sister whose a year and a half younger than me. I am the oldest in my family and I always felt like I was on the outside looking in. I hated how she always made me feel like a worthless human being. And it wasn’t until I had kids of my own that I really saw it. I really thought that when I had kids of my own that I would then have this profound revelation and newfound respect for my mother because then I would understand why my mother treated me the way she did. I thought that once I had kids of my own that her childrearing would make sense. It didn’t. I was CONFUSED and HURT and ANGRY. I realized quickly that she hated me and I didn’t know why. I could not understand how a mother could ‘hate’ her own child. The love I have for my kids was so deep that I could never imagine ever treating them the way my mother did me.

The abuse escalated when I became a Christian (about 3-4 years before having kids) that’s when all hell broke loose – the abuse really stepped up, and I thought she made me feel worthless before. Now it was worse and I was convinced that I would understand why she treated me that way she did when I had kids of my own. But when I had kids of my own – it all backfired. I was so confused! And even with all that, it didn’t matter how kind I was or how much I would try to make her love me – it just flat out didn’t work.

The abuse eventually got so bad that I had to omit her. And so true, Diane, exposing and unlearning the lies takes time – when you are manipulated and degraded and guilted and shamed – the lies take root at one’s core – and it takes time doing it. Thank you so much for your kind words.

I hope for all hurting souls who read and comment on EFB truly find healing for their souls, their hearts, but mostly their minds. I find in our case its a battle of the mind and what the mind thinks. It’s about changing our thinking. I know it has done wonders for me – as slow and tedious as it seems! I found her site about two years ago now and I found it right when I needed it most. My heart aches for all those like us who endured such insidious and surreptitious abuses – from any of the women I’ve seen comment here, none of us deserved it. I mean, really, who ‘deserves’ abuse?? From where I sit, no one.

{hugs to all!}

Hi Darlene,
Thanks for your comment. I’d basically stopped thinking about everything, because it was all just #%*^ing with my head too much. But I’ve moved out of home now so at least have some distance etc. Still afraid of confrontation etc so haven’t done anything there; but just stopped replying to texts/phone calls for the most part (occasionally see them; usually in conjunction w/family birthday etc), but I guess it feels like a small step in defining my own life (even if it’s in a passive way).

I had a pretty bad patch recently (last couple/few months) where it felt like pretty much every shred of hope I’d been holding on to (in terms of things to focus on/potential ways forward etc) had disappeared. It felt like it happened in conjunction w/seeing the past more realistically; or in other words, as I became more aware of the abuse etc, the fantasies/illusions I had about who I was/what I was capable of etc broke down as well, leaving me to face the truth that I’d basically been keeping my head above water by holding on to a bunch of false illusions in which I was a much more capable person than I actually am.

(Not sure if this is making any sense. I’ll keep trying anyway…)

Basically, I kinda lost all hope of being “normal” (or “functional”) someday, and pretty much stopped caring about most things. I only shower occasionally nowadays, basically only clean my place for room inspections, and stopped bothering about trying to appear like I’m functional (eg trying to keep “normal” daytime hours etc). It wasn’t a very pleasant process, and I was quite afraid of suicidal thoughts overtaking me, but I think in a way it seems to have removed a lot of the pressure I put on myself, and has left me (comparatively) free to just go out when I feel up to it, have a few drinks, and basically do the “teenage” thing that I avoided first time round, without stressing or beating myself up quite so much. And although this might not seem a “good” thing, (and not denying I still get very lonely and depressed at times), overall I seem to be doing better than I was (actually going out now, lost a bit of weight, made some new friends/acquaintences etc).

Lost track of my thread here a bit…. I think in terms of “taking a break”, my doctor had advised me to stop (or at least back off) on reading/thinking so much about self-help topics etc…. and I think I agreed, because I was quite regularly getting myself so stressed out from thinking about it all… so I guess I’ve largely gone with the “head in the sand” defense…. but hey. Better than nothing. And stressing myself all the time wasn’t helping anyway.

Alright, gonna wrap it up here…. this feels very pessimistic (just like when I used to post more often…. oh well. I’ll put it up anyway for now.) hope everyone’s doing well.

J

PS – I forget who was talking about eating disorders earlier, but it made me think that I think I’ve lost weight because my mother isn’t around to give me shit for eating late at night anymore (because of this, I developed the habit of waiting til she was asleep before coming out to eat so she wasn’t around to bother me. But I think it became kinda compulsive – eating as a distraction etc.) Arguably, I’ve just replaced that with alcohol, but hey.

Apologies if this is too dark or anything.

Hi Aurele,

I am 30 and a baker. I started baking four years ago after studying totally unrelated subjects. I really love it and am thinking one day I will go back to school to take a baking program. I also write fiction and hope to be published someday.

I wish you all the best in your search to make changes in your life, and I’m so sorry you were treated so badly. I’m glad that you have escaped, though, and that your grandparents opened their door to you. I hope that we will all find freedom and wholeness.

Janie…I think it is amazing that you have become a sucessful professional with 2 degrees…and working to go for a 3rd! Plus a healthy relationship and a good life….after all you went through! You certainly have a LOT to be proud of yourself for no matter what reasons you accomplished everything for. I really feel for you for all that you suffered, and the rejection, fear and anxiety you experienced…and the neglect of your mother. I am so sorry that you were set up to be bullied by that horrid nun. It sounds like she must have been an angry bitter unhappy and unfufilled person herself to do that to a small child! I am so sorry that you had the medical conditions that werent even explained to you and were neglected! I cant even imagine what you must have gone through and felt as a little girl. You brought back some memories to me from when I attended Catholic school! My mom would also give me a terrible lunch…one she knew I hated day after day, and so I would throw it all away and it got to the point where I was so hungry that I would stay in at recess and actually steal from the other children’s lunches. I did that for a long time until I got caught by some children…who told my entire 3rd grade class, and one day they cornered me on the playground and confronted me. I was so embarrassed and humiliated and cried….but I was absolutely in the wrong and the shame I felt until well into my adult years! I never did have a situation where a nun or teacher was cruel to me like yours was, so I cant imagine how you must have felt! I did have a similar situation with food at home…my older brother and I were only allowed to drink out of plastic cups that my mom would use to hold her hair conditioner in. The plastic absorbed all of the smell and “flavor”, and even when we drank from them, the milk tasted like the conditioner. There were so many food issues going on in my family….and Darlene helped me to realize how it was all about the control. Just like the meals given for school…that was all about control too. I also got taped up at home….masking tape on my mouth and hands taped behind my back for hours…..and there were other very humiliating things that my dad never knew about. I believe the truth now…it really was all about control and the way to control was in humiliation and some really weird crap…and lots of abuse and neglect. It is so sad and so comforting at the same time for me to read your comments and everyone else’s comments…and realize how similar my crazy life was to others….when I had felt that I was pretty much all alone in it. I am so glad you are seeing the lies for what they are about yourself….and that YOU are obviously just what your mother feared that you would become all along….MORE than SHE is. Darlene mentioned that recently in a comment and it stuck with me about abusers. I bet it drives your mother crazy that you have turned out to be so strong and have gone on to become the person that you are today. Now all she can do is try to make sure that you arent happy…..and it sounds like she tries hard to see that you comply to HER . Grace and peace to you!!!

Janie, I agree with you….it is very sickening! To have that legacy as a parent….and think of that nun you were in school with! Her legacy as a nun who “loves” God! I am sad that you were tied up to a tree…where do these ppl come up with such humiliating and painful ideas for their own children? So bizarre! The tape was placed over my mouth, not my nose, but it scared me a lot. I think what was always more frightening and actually terrifying to me were the looks that were given to me and the intensity of the anger. When I think back on the “crimes” I committed as a child and the “punishments” , it was a nightmare. I went to therapy two times briefly in my 20s and early 30s, and one time I remember the therapist asking me if I thought my mom was trying to keep me out of the way by punishing me. Meaning…did she create situations where I would be punished and then out of her hair for the rest of the day or for weeks at a time. I didn’t have a clue back then, but I do believe that now. We would do something very minor….chewing gum was one of them, and then be given 500-800 long sentences to write for a punishment. We were in our rooms endless days and nights writing because sometimes we even were given more than one to write. Did your mother create things to keep you out of the way? I have never heard of that before so I am curious if anyone else experienced something similar? What was your father like …..was he passive or emotionally unavailable? To have believe such negative lies about his own daughter made me wonder.

Sonia, Thanks for recommending that book! Yes, it is very heavy. I have to read it in little bits. But it is another form of help and support, so that is great. My book is downloaded to the kindle, so I dont think I have come across the quiz yet. That sounds interesting. I was diagnosed with PTSD, but I am wondering what the quiz has to say?
Melody, I am so glad the wedding is over and went well. I guess we can say it went well because your NF didnt create a scene. So narcississtic, making it all about them, particularly the Nrents! Boycotting the dinner, not going through the recieving line, your sisters, taking guard positions around them, my goodness! Are we 2 yrs old? A normal family would put differences aside, and focus on the young person whom this celebration is about! My mother enjoys taking the focus off of the celebrant and placing it back on herself by making a scene, having a fake tear fest, etc. At my brother’s wedding, she went around telling everyone she could be pregnant, had been to the doctors and would not find out the results until Monday! My goodness, she created such a buzz and a flutter! Sickening. I’m glad for you, that they are out of state, actually. Isn’t it peaceful, when they are not around making problems?
Diane, you know, I actually can’t remember getting punished too much, as I was that well trained! I was aways off reading a book, or outside playing. I was very much a book worm. So I was already out of her hair. She controlled us with her anger. She could go from nothing, to shrill shrieking in 1 second flat. We could always gage her level of anger, by the sound of her high heels against the floor. If she wasn’t getting her way, her steps were sharp and rapid.Stacatto. My father was actually a rage-aholic growing up. I would get this sick feeling of dread in my stomach, right around 4 pm, when he was due to come home. He would walk through the house, and throw anything that was out of place. Did we not wipe the walls down in the shower after using? He would bellow about that,and the possible mold that could occur. Shampoo/conditioner bottles out of place? He would open the cellar door, and fire the bottles down into the basement. Something out of place in the kitchen? He would rant about that. He was so frightening, he could control everyone just with his voice. When he wanted something done, he would speak quietly, plainly, very deliberately, so you got the message. Physical abuse? Well, he would hold you arm firmly and MOVE you to the area he felt you needed to be. See, this kitchen isnt clean. See, you left a mess in the bathroom. It did hurt your arm. I was so frightened of him that I really stayed out of his way. Once, I was crying,b/c I was afraid of the dark. He came to my room, dragged me by one arm out of bed, across the floor, and flung me against the wall in the hall. Then he said “I have to get up at 5 in the morning”,and left me there. I wonder why they even had children? But I know the answer to that is, my mother wanted the status of being “Mother of 5″ in the catholic church.
Last night, when I was laying there, thinking about your question about punishment, I was actually feeling that sick feeling of dread in my stomach, that these 2 could cause. And it was helpful, because I could now connect that feeling to my overeating and love of comfort food, to quiet that sick stomach feeling. I did overeat as a child and do periodically now. Interestingly, since I went no contact with my 2 Nsisters and low with my mother, I have not been eating right, and not exercising like I usually do.Am up about 5 pounds. Old habits. But, I should be greatful,not to have this stress and angry people in my life. well, I “made the connection”,and went back to my weight watchers online today. I think it is a great way to take care of yourself. I don’t need to punish myself with food, and I do have a right to take care of myself with exercise (which I do love, actually!)
Thank you, Diane for sharing all you went through. I identified with much of what happenened to you. You know,that tape over the mouth. A few days ago I saw a show where a serial killer put tape over the mouth, then the nose of his victims, and they died.Could not stop thinking about that. It must pull up primal instincts in us, when our mouth and/or noses are covered. Breathing is essential to life!
Well, off to walk, and get back on the trail of healthily taking care of myself. Thanks everyone, for being here,for listening and sharing! This is such a godsend, this site! Thanks, Darlene! :0)

Janie

P.S. Another memory on being “well-trained”. My mother had company for lunch,and I was instructed not to come out of my room. I had to go to the bathroom, but did not want to disobey. There was an empty #10 can in my closet, so I actually went in there (both ways). My mother was so angry when I showed her, but I reminded her, I was instructed not to leave my room. Smiling now, she had to deal with what was in the can……

And Janie
They don’t want us to consider that we actually have equal rights and equal value. As soon as a person realizes that, they start to change. They get stronger; they look for the escape route.
Thank you for sharing your story of what happened to you in childhood. What a nightmare. She bore children??? That is her answer or justification for the way she treated you?
It makes me stop and think today about how our society thinks that teens are so difficult but they never wonder HOW THEY GOT THAT WAY. It ticks me off.
P.S. please share and “rant” as often as you like. It always helps others and so many (thousands!) relate to it.
Hugs, Darlene

Hi everyone,

I remember when I was a child, my mother used to put her hand in front of my mouth when I start to cry. I doing this, I couldn’t breathe during a few seconds until she remove her hand.
I remember also had tapes on my mouth and at kindergarten too.

I feel so sad about the fact that my little sister have been seeing my father still today.
It hurt, it sounds like a betrayal and that’s scares me.

One other fact I don’t understand is why why my sister hadn’t this unfair treatment ? why me ? why my non father chose me ? and my sister had more protection than me from my mother. Why my mother prefered her to me ?

That’s so unfair.

My father was too a raging person. he controlled us (especially me) in the home about details like forgetting to open the window of my bedroom the morning.
I was punished for this forgetting, I had less pocket money.

And my parents was surprised because when I was a teenager, I was “difficult” and I was no more the perfect child I used to be (with inhuman efforts) in childhood. And I start to feel very very bad.
But they never never wondered why I became that way.

Thanks for reading.

Thank you Janie for your kind words, it moves me and empowering me.

Diane, Thank you for all of your kind words and understanding. Boy, your father was a rage-aholic as well! I feel sorry for your brothers as well. How are they doing in life? My brother is in total denial of any abuse and neglect, and is ultra-loyal to both of my parents. I am sorry that you were beaten by your father, as instigated by your mother. My mother did that as well, stir up my father to come down on us. The incident of abuse where the croquet stick was broken on your butt, that is horrible. People go to jail for such things now. It was weird, it made me remember my mother broke a bread board on my butt, when I was 5. I had crossed the street to ride the neighbors tire swing, and she didnt know.
Yes, I do think these dysfuctional families have alot in common. Ruled by anger and rage. Once, after starting treatment, my father came home and started his usual routine. I asked him, “Is that what you are really soooo mad about? Why do you do this?” And, surprise, he stopped behaving that way. Never did it again. As he has gotten older, he has mellowed,treats me fairly, and this is why I desire to have a relationship with him.
I blocked my mother on Facebook this week. She never communicated with me on it, but knew details of my life that she could have only seen there. Yet,she would not like to discuss my life, or be supportive or encouraging. It is like she was a spy. Gathering information that her and my sick sisters probably could pick apart and ruminate over. Too bad for them……………..

Janie

Thank you Diane .

Hi, I’m tired of telling my story but am no better off for it. I’m 50 next year and am still emotionally where I was when I was a teen. Life hurts full stop. I survive but most days wish I didn’t. I have screamed inside when I’v asked for help but nothing helps. I’m tired and just want it to hurry up and be over. I’m not gona do anything to myself but long for my deathbed. The damage done killed me inside. I don’t know who I am or the reason for the days I survive. Life is too hard.

Hi Cheeky Sprite
Welcome to emerging from broken
I know how you feel, I felt that way myself but it was through this healing process that I healed from the damage and found out who I was and found a purpose in life. I had to hear myself and validate that I had a reason to be heard. There is so much support here and so much insight and solution so I am glad that you have found this site.
Hugs, Darlene

Cheeky sprite,

I’m sorry you’re feeling so low. I still have my low times too … But, they’re getting to be farther apart, it seems. Just remember – it’s ok to take care of yourself. Just because your boy is grown doesn’t mean you are now of less value. Being a mom is SUCH an important job. You’re still a mom, your role with him has just changed a little. But, at the same time, I know there is more to ‘cheeky sprite’ than motherhood. That’s a good thing.

When it comes to taking care of yourself emotionally … It’s a hard – eye opening – process. And it can leave you feeling so emotionally raw. But, I’ve noticed – after fighting through the urge to run away from this work – it’s getting better. I’ve been writing down thoughts lately – if I have some realization about a memory and want to delve into it … but, if I’m feeling rushed or particularly low at that moment, I’ll jot down a brief note about it on my phone, then save it for my ‘meditation time’ later.

Not sure if that helps … I hope your day gets better …

((hug))
KR

I am so amazed at how the previous “comments” by all of you could be my story with a little tweak here and there. The idea of spying on your children instead of talking/communicating with them. My Mfigure was a barger too. Always trying to “catch’ you enjoying your life! Snooping – she was an expert. We used to set up little booby-traps so we would know where she’d been. Thinking back – we did not have anything to hide but did not like the invasion of privacy. Maybe one time out of fifty (50) i HAD A BARGE COMING TO ME hAHA.

The thing about the sick feeling around 4:00 pm every day is something that has finally healed in me. My brother and I used to ask each other about getting sick about 4:30 on the weekdays because “here they come”!
(Boswellia has also helped me with emotional eating) My siblings and I felt sorrow for our parents that they hated their jobs and life so much – we all tried to fix them or help them. My parents did not drink but they both raged and threw things and slammed around. Staccato footsteps I get that – also hearing barging footsteps in gravel – I’m still working on that one…hugs to all of you… tam

We had a long house and my brother and I would go outside the front sliding door q u i e t l y and sneak in the back door to get to the kitchen with out alerting D or M so we would not be put to a task in that moment. We could never escape hard labor but we could postpone it!

I always wanted children but did not ever have any. I am so proud of you daughters and sons of Narcissistic parents who have broken the cycle with your own children. When I read your stories I am flooded with compassion, empathy and I must say Love for you unknown Sisters and Brothers of destructive upbringings….

Hi Tamara
This is such a great discovery when we realize why a certain time of day is difficult. I had some anxiety around that same time and to this day I feel different on weekends about “time” and the “self help books” say it has something to do with needing a healthy snack or some such thing.. I bought that explaination for a very long time. I think that MANY people have a time of day when scary parents came home from work that left a reaction pattern on the child. No wonder the “healthy snack” never helped! LOL
Thank you so much for sharing.
Hugs, Darlene

Once again this resonates quite well and it took letting go of my mother and entire family to see the extent and depth of damage. My relationship with my mother has always been sick, my mother though suffers from schizophrenia, used me not just as a daughter, but really wanted me to give her the love, affection and whatever else that her estranged mother never could. and of course i took all the responsibility because after all my mother was this fractured woman-child who needed me and who was i to need love in the same way. Not only was I her caretaker but became her lifeline, her therapist or her priest. she would find it most easy to deliver her personal demons to me whether I wanted to or not citing ‘if I dont tell you, you will not know’. If only I could do the same with her. to this day, I have convinced myself (or rather have been convinced) that I will never have a family and could never allow myself to give the way that I had to all those years.

Wow, where do I start??? I was molested by the next door neighbor at age 9 and didn’t tell my mother cause I knew she wouldn’t believe me. So I suffered alone. Turns out I was right. When I finally opened up when I was 45 her comment was “What’s there not to believe?” Before you think that’s a positive, think again. She barely took a breath before adding “We can’t tell your father cause he’ll kill the wife” The molester died years ago but she would rather defend Dad than give me emotional support. The kicker was 7 years later I sat both of them down and told Dad. Poor guy looked like he was kicked in the gut. MOM LIED. She said *I* told her to not tell him!! Mom can’t hurt for me and feels worse for Dad. I’ve always been the one to stand up for my two sisters when Dad was chasing us in a drunken rage. I was the one to point out that Dad has issues, only to be told that I’m over sensitive and to ‘let it go’. SO FRUSTRATING. So I grew up feeling like there was something wrong with me and that I didn’t count. My counselor told me years ago that I have the lowest self esteem he’s ever seen. I’m working very hard to be there for my two kids. I admit when I’m wrong and give them the opportunity to be angry with me and point out how I’ve hurt them. I then apologize and we move on and have a close relationship. I’ll never have that with my mother. Not sure if she can’t or won’t.

Colin, your posting could not be more timely! I’m going through a very similar situation with my own mother. I’m 46 years old, I’ve suffered from a major depressive episode for at least the last year and have struggled so much with guilt and shame. I don’t know how my journey will end but I hope that things come out well.

Counselling is proving to be way more difficult than I have anticipated. I often come out feeling more powerless and “defective” is that part of the process to go even lower before you begin to turn around?

I’ve simply been avoiding my family because I just don’t have the strength to deal with them and the toxic dynamic. I hope I have the strength to see it through.

Thank you so much for your post, I feel less alone!

Hi Victoria,
I was once told that the journey to self-discovery would take the rest of my life. I now realise I never had a relationship with myself.

Counselling is not easy, in the begining its the realisation of just how much of ourselves we have surendered and then it hits home the magnitude of the task at hand. Along the way there will be very real moments of pure joy to inspire you forward. Two years in I still find Counselling to be one step forward two steps back.

Hi Teresa
This is such a huge question! In a nut shell, (I have written about this before too) it isn’t just about having control but that is a big part of it but it how having control makes them feel that is the bigger part of it. It is about how they get thier self esteem. I call it “getting their order restored”. Part of it is about what other people will think too as you mentioned.
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Anne
Welcome to Emerging from Broken
This is a very good presentation of the cycle of abuse that we are talking about. Victims of abusive and dysfunctional family become abusers. And so many siblings or half siblings (sometimes even cousins) believe that we need to try to help them or fix them all in the name of family. I had to re think about what family really was. Was I obligated to take that kind of disrespect? No. “family” are not exempt from the the true meaning of love and we all deserve to be respected. I had to make a lot of these types of decisions and it was a lonely time when so many people were not interested in meeting me half way ~as if to say “oh no YOU are not worth the effort” but I had to assure myself that I was worth MY effort to me. I look back and do not see any alternative to the actions that I finally took on my behalf unless I went along with the trash treatment that I was receiving from my family. Looking back I also see that in reality, they did not accept or even consider my request for mutual respect and therefore it is them who walked away from me and not the other way around.
Glad you are here
Hugs, Darlene

for years my sister has excluded me and emotionally taken over my social connections.. i am done with her but I am not angry … i am peaceful. it is good. it is very good. i’m free.

Hi Em
Welcome to EFB yes.. this work is not for the timid! Thanks for sharing!
Hugs, Darlene

When we are not valued.Not listened to. Not accepted for the unqiue individual we are. Are treated as if we are invisible. When we are made to feel small. Our feelings disregarded. That we are unimportant.
We get angry. Anger is natural, god given emotion. When that anger is not expressed turned inwards it becomes depression.

Anger is just an indication that something is wrong and we ignore it at our own peril.

We all have to define our own boundaries. for me after 50 yrs it was to cease all contact. I knew she could not change but, something in me had.

Hi Darlene,

For me it was always about “WHY.”

Asking myself “WHY.” Questioning my mothers version of reality which she presented as ‘the only’ acceptable one. kept me ‘sane,’ I spent a lot of the time trying to fathom out how I could be wrong. Ok my thoughts may have been different but, not unacceptable. How CAN an emotion that I feel that is a reflection of how I am feeling in this present moment be wrong,unacceptable. It was about stripping out anothers sense of self-knowing of causing me to doubt myself, to question what I knew to be true of myself.

I have just realised that is what kept me off balance, that I was consumed by “WHY.”

Why is all about our trying to make sense of what we experience.
So of course we will try and make sense of how we are mistreated.

To question why we are treated as we are, ‘IF’ we are loved as they say we are, then why are we not loved for who we are?

To maintain, stroke control the relationship my mother used manipulation to get her needs met.

Why after all the years of no boundaries, which cannot be put in place by them. Because they would be required as the parent to instil them. That their behaviour is the legacy of the damage done in their own childhoods.
Why are we surprised that we keep allowing them into our lives, why they KEEP returning?

What we do is set a boundary.

After we have accepted. Grieved the loss of the parent we needed but never had, accept they don’t exist. that what we always wanted in our lives does not exist in reality. We are then free, They become powerless over us.

WE ACCEPT that we shall never get what we have always wanted and needed from them. We accept that they will never be what we need them to be

Hi Colin
These comment are so excellent! I came to all these conclusions too and I have written articles about the way that I was so hooked on the why questions! You have articulated this so well!
Thank you for sharing again!
Hugs, Darlene

Thank you Darlene that means a lot! Bless your soul for caring so much…

I’m guessing this is what the real work is, taking it to action and making those very uncomfortable self-affirming changes relating to others.

Assertiveness is extremely difficult for me. Real fear of speaking up to people unless I reach the point of snapping. I’ve been thinking, “Why are other people’s feelings more important than mine? Why do I try to please them so much and ‘make’ them like me?”

Because I feel if they don’t like me, I am unlikeable. They can ‘see’ my worth, determine it with x-ray eyes. So why did I get that way? I learned it was futile to assert myself at home, I would always be unheard, or wrong (if contrary to them) or shot down or pathologized for speaking up. It caused so much trouble and hurt that I kept so much in. I catch myself not telling people things because I think they won’t care. So I learned I had no power.

But I do have power, and the hard work is in speaking up, in protecting myself and not letting things slide anymore, cause that shows myself disrespect. But this is the really sucky sucky part for me. I hope one day it gets easier.

{{{{HUGS}}}}

Hi,
I had a big issue with seeking the validation of others.

I had to end a friendship with a good mate of mine,because I realised that my friendship with him was the same as the one between me and my mother.

That I wanted him to validate me. the problem for me is that when I do recieve the validation of others I feel so good about myself, I am like a junky on a high, but then that all comes crushing down when we do not recieve it.

What happens is that we allow others to have power over us annd they will use it mercylessly.

The “WHY OF IT”

In a normal relationship (?) the child is LOVED for who and the what they are, for all of what makes them an individual, their differences. These are accepted and loved by the parent and the parent loves the child unconditionally.

Now that unconditional love from the parent is transformed by the child into their own positive regard,love, for themselves.

The child learns from this, is secure in their inner self-knowing that they are loved and are loved by themselves, secure in that sense of self.

Hi Vicki
Welcome to emerging from broken.
It is very typical for an abuser to become angry when we try to change, set boundaries or stick up for ourselves in any way at all. And they will blame everyone else because they never want to look to themselves and they believe that relationship is up to the other person to maintain.

It was huge for me to learn that I had any rights. That was the beginning for me. I was stunned when I came out of the fog and realized that I didn’t regard myself as equal to others. ( I thought I did!) and that I didn’t know I had rights! So finding out I had rights, as you say here, was a huge beginning!
Thanks for sharing,
Hugs, Darlene

Thanks Darlene so much for your encouragement! Wow….really means a lot

I wrote down on a paper what I last posted and what your response was and have it on my wall. I find writing about different childhood issues and keeping them in a binder helpful. My therapist gave me a binder with teddy bears on it Sometimes I put stickers on the pages…inner child stuff.

I’m learning that I have to listen to my gut about people. That’s the truth spot, and my brain has often overrode it’s messages.

The friend that I just wrote a letter to saying goodbye, like many people has many fine qualities aside from what disturbs me about her. She has helped me a lot, does a kind of new age healing work with touch, incense etc and I loved her sessions. So I swallowed what bothered me. But the overtalking me repeatedly could not be tolerated anymore. It was very rude and blatant and often I wondered, “Did you not just hear me speaking?” One time visiting her I was talking about an upsetting day where someone I barely know stopped and asked if I was ok. I said to her, “He saw me crying and…” CAN YOU PASS ME THAT PLANT? she says.
My ingrained response to stuff like this is to get quieter and quieter, retreat within. And it’s out of fear.

Now I’m at the point where I can say (to myself), “You’re a nice lady in some ways, but ya gotta go”. I’m strong enough for that step now, although I feel guilty, yes, but that’s to be expected, it’s my conditioning that I’m only now challenging. Like you say, this takes a lot of time. The real tell when I saw her the other day was the excuse she made for her interrupting me in July. She’s a Buddhist and talks a lot about lofty things and she talks very cerebrally, but there’s a lot of ego there if you can’t say, “I’m sorry”.

Now I’m starting to think of why I’ve allowed certain people in my life in the first place. And this has to be understood in my mind as, repeating patterns.

The obvious connection me and this friend had was in our common demeanor and spiritual interests. But digging deeper, I see that she was actually a dominant personality, and emotionally detached. She was intentionally enigmatic about her childhood, revealing little, like my parents never did, and also they were detached. She had left her children for 7 years to move cross country and rationalized that they had their father, and couldn’t understand why her children were alienated from her today. My mother regularly threatened to leave on her own. Everything was so detached, just like with my mom and dad. She is materialistic, like my mom and dad. Once called to remind me of my ‘responsibility’ to pay her back the $2.25 I owed cause she paid for earrings that I liked on sale. INCLUDED THE TAX like my Dad.

I was biting my tongue and angrily tolerating the same issues I lived with at home, some of the same messages (but not til now recognizing this, making the connection): “things and money mean more than relationship, what you have to say isn’t as important was what I have to say”, the emotional disconnect. My parents knew everything best, being parents. This friend often acted like a spiritual elder. Once I expressed regret for missing a talk a visiting lama gave in town, which she went to. “It probably would have went over your head”, she said. Calling me a “baby bird”, it reminded me of the “weak” dependent message from long ago.

I do believe people come into our lives in part to test us on issues. Now I will pay close attention to the qualities of people I feel drawn to, and why I do…am I seeking a mutually respectful and affirming connection, or am I settling for a replay of the past to ‘confirm’ what I was taught about myself, to keep this brainwashed ‘truth’ alive? It’s been easier to keep the lies alive then to challenge them in icky scary ways, but I understand I just wasn’t ready before, wasn’t so aware. Getting out of that comfort zone is very difficult.

{{{HUgs}}}

Hi Anne and Em
I can share that all of this kind of thing straightened out for me as I went through my healing process and did the re-programing work with my own belief system. I saw so much dysfunction as I did this work, so much relationship that didn’t work and I saw why I was so sucked into it. The more I learned self care and self love by unlearning the false definitions of love etc. the more I was able to see how to stand up to this kind of thing in relationship to either draw boundaries that were respected OR to remove myself from it. I hope this helps. It is a huge question to answer.
Hugs, Darlene

Hi Cathy
I realized so much of this in my own life and patterns with people. Something that really helped me a lot was looking at the definitions of words like love, relationship, respect etc. I had the definitions all wrong! Love isn’t getting gifts or giving gifts. My mother wanted me to ‘do things’ to prove I loved her and when I didn’t want to there was punishment. When I saw that the relationship we had was nothing to do with mutual love or respect and that the rules didn’t apply to her the way they applied to me, I was able to get stronger. That truth is the truth that I was able to build my stronger foundation on! I was able to see the ‘funkyness’ of the way our relationship worked for her. (and this is true for almost all the relationships that I had back then)
Thanks for sharing,
Hugs, Darlene